IN: Well, I'm delighted to welcome back to the
Toolstation Western League podcast Phil Hiscox, the secretary of the Southwest
Peninsular League, and John Pool, the chairman of the Toolstation Western
League. We're going to start with you, Phil, because there was an announcement
made in July that the FA Leagues Committee have now approved the merger of the
Southwest Peninsula League and the Western League. Does that mean a merger is
now definitely happening?
PH: Yes, pretty well. What it means is that the big
hurdle of having approval from ... so, basically, the whole project has changed
from being a project group working on a proposal to the proposal is now
granted. It's now up to those same people with a few bits of help (and we can
talk about how that's going to develop) instead of talking about a proposal,
now talking about how to make it a reality in time for the timeframe - which,
again, until the FA had made the decision the timeframe wasn't absolutely set
in stone, but it now is as the 23/24 season.
IN: One other sort of supplementary question to
that Phil was I noticed it was the Leagues Committee who made the statement on
behalf of the FA. For those people listening who aren't familiar with the
internal structure of the FA, who are the Leagues Committee, what is their role
in all of this?
PH: Each county FA has a member of the FA Council
and there are certain others from the professional game, the service football
associations, all that sort of thing, the Premier League and EFL have
representatives. Each of those people sit on an FA committee so there's one on
referees; the chap from Devon, Tom Sampson, sits on the Referees Committee; the
chap from Cornwall, Geoff Lee, he sits on the FA Vase Committee. Ironically
enough the chap from Somerset, Phil Chaplin, sits on the Leagues Committee. So,
the Leagues Committee is made up of council members from up and down the
country whose job, beyond that subcommittee, is to control the National League
System leagues. It's not really for the leagues below that, because those are
dealt with by the County FAs themselves.
IN: Excellent stuff. Now, John, we've talked about the new structure starting for the 2023/24 season. But what work needs to happen between now and then to make that a reality?
JP: Well, initially a considerable amount. I mean, this is about now creating a new company, bearing in mind we've obviously got another season to be able to sort of deal with ongoing. We met on Monday, representatives of both leagues, we had an excellent meeting in terms of putting together how we saw the process being rolled out in regard to what needed to be done, where the priorities lead. I think it was well established that we have a fair idea that whilst there won't be major changes, because both leagues run in a very similar fashion, what we would like to do is probably - it may be necessary to seek advice with regards to things that we perhaps haven't identified when mergers come about - but we're fairly confident at the moment that now we've got the 'go ahead'... like I say, we've had no contact with the FA since that time with regards to what they're looking for, that we've got a fair idea. And we believe that we've got the expertise on both leagues to be able to create this new business and getting us prepared for 23/24.
IN: So, Phil, I guess for many people listening to this, this is going to be the million-dollar question. The joint statement made by the leagues talked about the new league running with five divisions, which will include a new division at Step Five. So, what clubs and fans are going to want to know is what are we going to be playing for this season? What can you tell us about how this structure is going to be populated?
PH: Yeah, answer to your question in two parts. The first part, the reason why it's five divisions is that was the primary object of the proposal that we developed over the last year is that the main issue that needed to be addressed is the travelling at Step Five. So, that's why there's a creation of two Step Five divisions and still retaining three Step Six divisions, so that's the big change. As far as what they're playing for this season: at Step Five in the Western League, they are playing for exactly the same as they were playing for last season in that the champions will be promoted to Step Four, the runners up would be, all things being equal, invited to play a playoff game against a low team from Step Four. Obviously, in the case of Exmouth last season that [wasn't] actually required, but that's ultimately the prize for whoever finishes second at Step Five this season, unless circumstances dictate a change. Now, as far as playing at Step Six and Step Seven, that is something worth changing for this season. At Step Six, remember there are three Step Six divisions; Peninsula East, and West, and Western League Division One, clearly there are going to be extra teams elevated - upward movement, the FA call it, you're not allowed to call it promotion, upward movement. And what the proposal documents suggested, and the FA Leagues Committee have ratified, the first priority for those upward movement clubs will be four clubs from each of the three Step Six divisions, so that would be 12 clubs in all, those four spaces would be exclusively for the leagues that they're individually playing in, so they can't be transferred. You can't say, 'Well, we're going to take an extra club from Cornwall or an extra club from Bristol.' There’re four spaces for Peninsula East, Peninsula West, Western League Division One, with the only slight asterix on those is they've got to have both a 'G' ground grading in place on the 31st of March, which the vast majority of clubs have. And even if they haven't, they've still got that deadline. And secondly, they've got to give a written commitment to reach grade 'F', which is the highest standard, within a year's time. So, that's up to a club individually to make sure that they're aware of what they're letting themselves in for. I would expect pretty well every club to do that, you know, to just go forward with that. But it's a decision they have to make, and they have to confirm in writing that they're prepared to do that at the end of the season. That, as I say, creates 12 clubs, there are going to be additional spaces, and that's when the waters get a little bit more muddied. They can come from one of two places; first of all, clubs playing in any Step Five league, or any league in the National League System have a right to apply for a lateral move from one league to another. And the system to doing that is to put it in writing to the FA by the end of the calendar year, and then the FA Leagues Committee will make a decision. As we had more recently with Keynsham, a club can appeal that decision, should they so wish. Now, the last couple of years, all of those cases have been clubs from the Western League asking to leave to join a different competition, mainly the Hellenic League. What we would anticipate is that there are some clubs that have gone to the Hellenic League, who may now, seeing the new proposal, the new geographical footprint, want to make a similar application to come from the Hellenic League back into the new league, the Step Five division that will cover the Bristol area. The FA would have an absolute duty to, at the very least, listen to those proposals. Any they grant would be automatically at Step Five, because they would be lateral moves of clubs already playing at Step Five, unless of course they're in a relegation position, but let's not muddy the waters too much on that. So, that could fill the remaining spaces. I say could because on that one there's a large number of unknowns; how many will apply? What will the FA's views be on those? Will the FA grant them? Will those clubs even appeal where they would have a right of appeal? So, let's assume that it doesn't quite fill everybody up, and then that comes into our third category, which is not dependent on each individual league. It basically says if there are additional spaces, they will be offered to the clubs that have missed out at Step Six on a points-per-game basis. And that could be any club in any of the three divisions, it can be more than one club across the three divisions. We basically use points-per-game until we've got 36 clubs at Step Five.
IN: Dare I ask a question about the dreaded R word? Has relegation featured in the arrangements that you're considering for next season?
PH: From Step Five I presume you mean?
IN: Unfortunately, I'm going to have to declare an interest here, Phil, because I support a team that managed to get relegated from Step Six!
PH: Right, well, okay, then the answer is in two parts, because there are differences. It wasn't specifically in the proposal about relegation from Step Five, and myself and John have queried that and I'm talking here slightly off the record in that we haven't got a written definition of this. But we are told that the national rules apply, and that clubs who finish bottom of a Step Five division would be relegated and can't be reprieved. Clubs who finish in other relegation positions should be relegated but could be reprieved as they have elsewhere in the country last season. So, my advice to anybody in the Western League at the moment would be not to finish bottom because that's the obvious danger spot. Now, at Step Six it's different because that is specifically mentioned in the proposal. And what it says is; because populating three Step Six divisions having lost clubs upwards to Step Five is going to produce a large number of vacancies, that relegation can be reduced at Step Six this season in order to protect the numbers. And again, my advice to clubs there is, people like Sidmouth and Bishop's Lydeard were reprieved last season, technically in a relegation position, but with quite a few points on the board - and I would imagine that it's quite possible that they will come to the similar record and be reprieved this season. Equally, Devizes and Stoke Gabriel had very much poorer points-per-game and were relegated. So, in an ideal world, we would hope that whoever's in the relegation positions isn't cast adrift.
IN: John, if I can ask you - the joint statement
talked about consultation having taken place to get us to this point, can you
tell people a little bit about what the leagues have done to consult and with
whom?
JP: Yeah, it was at the behest of the FA, really, when the decision was fed back to us that in principle, everything was agreed. There were obviously concerns within the Leagues Committee, I think what they were thinking was, in particular, with the county leagues, or any of the feeder days come to that, that we were likely - or there was a requirement for us - to be going back to those respective leagues and taking more than the clubs that would normally progress through the system by natural upward movement. As a result of that, we set about speaking to all of the county FAs that were involved, together with all of the respective feeder leagues. Every one of those meetings was extremely positive and every one of those meetings we came away more than comfortable with the response that we'd received. Some meetings, obviously, I think there was, can I say there was more meat added than perhaps there were in others. But in principle, everybody understood what was required in terms of the formation of the new league and were totally supportive. So, in some respects, whilst it was a bit of a pain having to go through that process, it did turn out to be a very worthwhile exercise.
IN: Looking ahead, Phil, will there be more
consultation when the plans for how the new league will be administered,
including things like what it's going to be called, will there be more consultation
when those are a bit better developed?
PH: Yeah, John's already alluded to the fact that there was a joint meeting on Monday, just gone, between the two leagues. And I think, really, the one thing that came out of that was that that was probably the last meeting of the project team, that is the team that have developed the overall idea. We're now going to move to the next stage, which is a steering committee whose job is to actually deliver it, rather than talk about the hypotheticals. On that, the first part of the consultation is with the board members of the two existing leagues, and those have already been written to this week, to find out who wants to be involved and what skills they would feel to be involved, that's going to meet regularly from September onwards. That committee will then be charged with all sorts of duties and jobs to be done, some very mundane ones; setting up the new company, bank accounts, affiliation, the sanctions. Some will have a lot more interest to clubs, like you said, the name, cup competitions, particular rules, all those sort of things. Those are all got to be developed over the next year, although I do agree with John that a lot of the way things are run are dictated, a) because the two leagues run very similarly, but also both are limited companies at the moment both use the FA standardised rules, both use whole game per player registrations, both have the same common ground grading, and we're both tied by the National League System regulations. So, a lot of the rules are going to be written for us, but the way things are done, and some of the periphery ideas will change. And they will change for both or for one or the other, because I'm also a great believer that both leagues at the moment do a lot of things very, very well. And it's about making sure that we don't undermine that and possibly use the best practice in each individual situation from both leagues going forward. And sometimes that will be, 'well the way the Western League do things is the right way', sometimes we think it is the right way, sometimes it might be actually there's a better way than either league currently do. And whilst we're starting from scratch, now is the time to change things, but that's for the steering committee over the next year to explore and the other decision from that steering committee is that there will be subcommittees clearly on things like finance. I'm not the league treasurer, John's not the league treasurer, but those sponsors, finance, huge issues for the league, huge issues for the member clubs and it's only right that people with those skills are given the opportunity to sit down and work out how best to plot the finances going forward.
IN: So, then, John, when we look at the narrative behind the merger, we've talked a lot about travel time, travel distance and travel cost. But what are the other benefits that you think will come for football in the Southwest from this proposal?
JP: I think the benefits are that clubs, possibly simply because of their geographical location in the past, has probably considered that their opportunities to actively participate in the National League System have been extremely limited. I think this gives everybody the opportunity now. I think what's important going forward is that there's more advice given, there's more ... I think what we need to set up, and it's just another conversation that we need to have, really; at the moment, county FAs carry development officers, I think one of the considerations we may have to give is whether we actually can operate on a development side with a lot of these clubs to convince those clubs that it is doable. I mean, look, we recognise that clubs, more or less, know what their level is and what they're capable of being able to deal with. But I also think there's clubs out there that possibly are somewhat misguided in thinking that they probably can't cope with it. We all know how important the funding is, it's a conversation that we certainly need to be having with county FAs and probably with the FA as well. Without labouring it, I think we've always considered ourselves to be in a somewhat unique area down here. And I think if there's an honest intent to allow clubs, in particular in the deepest Cornwall, to be able to be active in the National League System, then some of these things need to be addressed. We're a long way away from that, but in answer to your question, I think it's opening up the pathway for clubs that potentially thought 'perhaps not' for them. There is a concern going forward with regards to the sustainability for different reasons, really. And I think in the past, the travel distances were key. We historically witness clubs that, unfortunately, were never really going to be able to sustain it over the long-term. I think what we need to be able to do now is get the new league in a position whereby clubs that actually have aspirations, can actually see those aspirations through.
IN: Phil, questions have been asked about how this proposal is going to work in practice. Specifically, whether it's going to over-promote teams into the new Step Five, division as well as potentially reducing the number of clubs at Step Six in the divisions to only 16. What is your response to that criticism?
PH: I think let's take Step Five first; I don't consider two 18s to be a problem at Step Five. And that's because there'll be so many commitments to other cup competitions it reduces the amount of midweek travel, and let's be perfectly blunt, clubs throughout football - this isn't an issue for the Southwest - players and match officials, and groundsman don't play on the ploughed fields that they used to do when we played 40-odd league games of the season. And perhaps probably they shouldn't. I mean, some of us of an older generation look at it and say, 'looks bloody playable to me.' But people don't these days, they expect a better quality of pitch. So, I'm very comfortable with 18s at Step Five, as to whether it will water down the standard; let's be perfectly blunt here - it's a gamble, and everything you do is a gamble, to stay still is the easy thing to do. To carry on doing things the way you've always done them is the easy thing to do. And the one thing I would commend the people involved, on both sides of this proposal, is their willingness to put things that they used to do on the line for the betterment of football by doing something different. If that's a gamble, yes, then so be it and some clubs may be over promoted, some clubs it will be absolutely ideal for them. It will be the difference between, dare we say it, choosing to play at Step Six or at Step Five, because you've created something that suits them so well. For others, it will be something they will strive to achieve perhaps in order to reach a timeline that's dictated. The one thing I would say on that gamble, though, is if it was a gamble 12 months ago, this restructure, when we talked about travel times, the way the cost of living is going, the way the cost of fuel is going, energy bills and things, it's less of a gamble now. There are actually more reasons now to reduce travelling than there was a year ago. So, on that side of the coin, I'm quite happy that the percentage of whether this is a good idea is actually a higher percentage than it was when we first sat down. Now at Step Six, myself and John, we both shared a concern that 16 is very low, and it's not our plan, if possible, to have 6 teams. We would like to have 8 teams. What we have to accept, though, is that the FA are, quite rightly in their regard, making sure that they protect the regional feeder leagues below in that we don't over-promote to the detriment of the sustainability of those leagues. So, 16 to 18s are possible. What we have said there, though, is if there are going to be 16s, particularly as at Step Six you still have to have floodlights, then another competition ... Now, the format of that hasn't been discussed. We called it a cup competition, that could be a round robin, it could be two-legged, it could be straight knockout. It's going to have to be developed to encourage extra fixtures and probably extra midweek fixtures. And I'm quite excited actually there that at Step Six, putting in some extra local derbies as cup commitments could be a good boost for those clubs’ finances, as well. And I think that's one of the things I have learned from what's happened over the last year or two is the issue of travelling reduces the number of good payday local derbies for all clubs. That's true in Bristol, where you know, every time you're playing a team from Cornwall it's a time where before you were playing somebody more local to you and just as true Cornwall, that if you're playing a team from Bristol, you're not playing a team from elsewhere in Devon and Cornwall. So, local derbies are very important, not just on the pitch for local honours, they're also very important to club chairmen and club treasurers.
IN: One final question then for you, John. Obviously, there's an awful lot of work that needs to take place to get this up and running for the start of next season. Where do we go from here?
JP: Phil's mentioned the fact now that we need to
start lining everything up with regards to who wants to be part of the steering
group, be part of the subcommittees to take this all forward. We're fairly
confident at this point in time that we know the direction we're going in. What
we are in the process of setting about now is producing things like Gantt
charts, which is probably going to put us under a bit of pressure, really. But
there are reasons for that; one, as yet, we've not had any direct contact from
the FA as I referred to earlier on, I think they will probably want to start
monitoring what progress is being made towards setting up the new company. And
it's also a mechanism for reporting back to the clubs to let them know what
progress is being made or not. Like Phil alluded to on Monday, we're probably
further forward than we perhaps anticipated we would be at this stage. So,
we're quite comfortable with where we're going. In the long-term it's going to
be the clubs that is going to make or break this. And we've listened, you know,
the project was launched on the basis that we recognise the existing
restructure was never going to work in the long-term. We've embarked on the
route that we're going down now, we've got support, as far as we're concerned
of all the stakeholders, including the FA. Yes, there's a lot of work to be
done but I'm quietly confident, well, I am confident that we will achieve the
deadlines by 23/24. In fact, we've got to, but there's nothing for me that says
that that isn't achievable. What I would actually ask, you know, given the
opportunity is, is for those people that are doubting whether this can work or
not; it is very much down to the clubs and their desire to want to participate
in this. And that reference is being made more to the clubs in the feeder
leagues. You know, seriously think now about whether you'd like to participate.
It's not for everybody, I understand that, but there is a lot on offer and
there will be a lot on offer. We've got a number of things that are in the air
at the moment, which has been alluded to as regards to the financial
implications in and around the new league. We've been very fortunate for some
considerable time; they'd have very good sponsorship. We're hoping that
continues because without a shadow of a doubt it will play a major part in our
future. So yeah, exciting times. Looking forward to it very much. I'm more than
happy with the way things are progressing at this point in time.
IN: John and Phil, thank you very much for your time. Thanks also for your candour, as well. You haven't shied away from any of the questions that I've put to you, and I appreciate that, and hopefully the listeners will too. I'm sure that later in the season when the plans develop, there'll be another opportunity for us to get together and talk through what this new league is going to look like.
The full interview can be heard on episode 4 of the Toolstation Western League Podcast.
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